Talk:Maximilien Robespierre

Addition to the article

Good afternoon! Nikkimaria suggested putting the question on the talk page. Link to our "Talk" - User talk:Nikkimaria

I would be grateful if additional information is included in the article, which will make the controversial idea of Robespierre's appearance more objective.

Sources confirming the accuracy of the information provided and the existing controversy (in the links):

"Robespierre's appearance also causes controversy and a subject of study. In 2000, the German Historical Museum discovered a previously unknown lifetime version of the portrait of Robespierre, another version of which is kept in the Musée Carnavalet ".

Illustration - https://us-west-1.cdn.h5p.com/orgs/1291571515093333268/organization/content/1291593982462265978/images/file-60e314790ed04.jpg

https://www.amis-robespierre.org/Madame-Tussaud-et-le-masque-de

https://www.dhm.de/bildung/ida/revolutionen/1789/#c14167

https://agorha.inha.fr/ark:/54721/6cf4137d-dfd1-462e-bdd6-d63a7f33bfa4

• Reply thanks for finding this material. A version of this portrait is already in the Infobox so I don’t think we should add material to the text of the article about a version being found in Germany. The text is already long and rather rambling and this would take it off topic. We might want to consider a new article on Visual representations of Robespierre as I expect there would be enough material for that. Mccapra (talk) 11:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. The text in my note was not a priority. In infobox is only  French version of portrait. The fact that there is no way to leave a link to the German version of the portrait in the main article on a par with the French version is disappointing. A large audience could compare the portraits. Despite the apparent similarity, the versions of the portraits differ. But I understand that further dialogue and argumentation will still not lead to a change in the decision.

I hope you will consider the need to create an additional article, since in the minds of the masses, it is possible to correct opinions about a person and his activities by changing ideas about his appearance. Thermidor58 (talk) 15:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

The number of sources can be increased. Thermidor58 (talk) 10:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Bad article

The details in this article are for the most part NOT NOTABLE. In reading about his last day(s), the name "Robespierre" is used for both him and his brother without any distinctions being made. Who shot himself in the mouth? Who had his jaw broken? Your guess is as good as mine. We are supposed to keep track of the "5 deputies" ...why? There is way too much detail on the others. It's not very relevant where the others were taken (to jail), is it? It's not relevant that AFTER he was transported (to prison) someone showed up to "rescue" him - it led to nothing. The format is in dire need of a cleanup. And excision of all the minutia. BTW, after reading the article, I have no idea how (or if) he was injured prior to his execution. This after reading thru the section twice. This should suggest that, yeah, we've bollixed this up.71.31.145.237 (talk) 00:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Sanson's memoirs as a source for 9 Thermidor

In the section about 9 Thermidor, Charles-Henri Sanson the executioner's memoirs are cited seven times (as citation #472). These memoirs were published by his grandson Henry-Clément Sanson in the mid 1800s. While they may contain material from Charles-Henri Sanson's diary and have many facts found in other sources, they were romanticized and "extensively rewritten by a journalist", and should not be trusted in preference to actual accounts. I tagged these with and .

On page 264 of Memoirs of the Sansons: From Private Notes and Documents (1688-1847) his grandson wrote: I will soon give up the pen to Charles Henri Sanson, my grand-father, and quote his diary exactly as he wrote it.[1]

I see no reason to doubt this but have to figure out of it was the grandfather or his father who was involved in the execution of Robespierre. I doubt if there any better sources, as Sanson was an eyewitness. On the next page (p. 265) it is states: Written as it is, Currente calamo ("with a running pen"), it is the most accurate diary of the scaffold which, I believe, can be found. Taksen (talk) 11:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully we can find actual sources with the same information. Some of the facts they support, at least Robespierre being taken to the Conciergerie, are probably covered in historical sources. Curuwen (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

You could check yourself, his book was translated into English; hoping is not enough.Taksen (talk) 11:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. One of the problems with this article has been overuse of non scholarly 19th century sources. Mccapra (talk) 06:00, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Some of these French authors were eyewitness, at least closer to the events than you or me. For a couple of years I checked facts, not opinions; that is why it took me so long. Taksen (talk) 11:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

To reply to this and your earlier point,

Translating embellished memoirs doesn't make them more "historical" or "accurate", just means they were taken seriously in the past. I read part of the English version and there is actual truth interspersed with anecdotes that we would not be able to verify from other sources.

For example, the memoirs state that Hanriot hid in the sewers for several hours to avoid arrest on 9 Thermidor, and also states that Robespierre picked flowers for Sanson's little nieces in the countryside. Compare this with other contemporary accounts such as Fréron's stating that Robespierre practiced shooting pistols—which contrasts with ANOTHER story saying that he misfired and shot his jaw off because he had never fired a gun before. Or even the rumors that circulated before Thermidor claiming that he had declared himself king and planned to marry Louis XVI's 16-year-old daughter. There are many many stories about Robespierre of varying accuracy, and we have reason to doubt this one at the very least. Fact and opinion have indeed become mixed in many sources about the French Revolution. Curuwen (talk) 01:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not know Honere de Balzac was accused of having written the text but this author is not mentioned on the French Wikipedia at all, which made me suspicious of the article on the English Wikipedia. I am studying this topic which says Balzac rewrote a certain account and it was published in his complete works.[2]

I was not translating the embellished memoirs, it is in English. I do not think it is bad to mention a few 19th century French sources when the article is about a Frenchman. It gives a wider view or different perspective on Robespierre.Taksen (talk) 19:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

What is Year II?

There are several references to "Year II" and the "Dictator of Year II." But I do not know what that means. There is no Year I or Year III mentioned, and all other dates are in the standard format. Can we add a note explaining what Year II is supposed to be? 2600:1700:46B0:7200:C53C:14CA:9903:A895 (talk) 20:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this is bizarre. Whoever integrated references to the French Republican calendar to this article did so in a terrible hack job. Remsense ‥ 论 20:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Suggested improvements

Not very many people seem to be interested in improving the article and adding sources. What could be the reason? Deleting is easier than adding.

• In the lead it is written: His legacy has been heavily influenced by his actual or perceived participation in repression of the Revolution's opponents, but is notable for his progressive views for the time. This sentence needs a source or to be deleted, as it sounds like propaganda.
• On 3 December, Robespierre accused Danton in the Jacobin Club of feigning an illness to emigrate to Switzerland.[citation needed] The citation is the same as two sentences down: The gathering was closed after applause for Danton.[317] "Gazette nationale ou le Moniteur universel – Year available1793 – Gallica". gallica.bnf.fr (in French). Archived from the original on 3 August 2020. Retrieved 15 February 2020.
• By ignoring it, the radical Jacobins emerged as the most vital political force of the French Revolution.[citation needed] I don't think it needs a source. The articles explains it.
• Robespierre's mother died on 16 July 1764,[citation needed] after delivering a stillborn son at age 29. The source is: Shulim, Joseph I. “The Youthful Robespierre and His Ambivalence Toward the Ancien Rέegime.” Eighteenth-Century Studies, vol. 5, no. 3, 1972, pp. 398–420. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2737836. Accessed 28 Dec. 2024.
• According to his friend, the surgeon Joseph Souberbielle, Joachim Vilate,[citation needed] and Duplay's daughter Élisabeth .... The source in the article on Éléonore Duplay is: L. Noiset, Robespierre et les Femmes, Editions Nilsson, 1932, p. 69. There is says: Many contemporaries and historians have suggested that she may have been his mistress, including Vilate, a juror on the Revolutionary Tribunal, who said, that Robespierre "lived maritally with the eldest daughter of his hosts", in reference to Éléonore. I added this source on 7 May 2024 but nobody bothered: Causes secrètes de la révolution du 9 au 10 thermidor par Vilate, p. 16. The intention is make this article, which has 568 references unreliable.
• On 10 October, the Convention officially recognised the Committee of Public Safety as the supreme "Revolutionary Government",[301] This sentence could be changed to: On 10 October, Saint-Just demanded, in the name of the Committee of Public Safety, that the Convention proclaim the Government of the Republic as the revolutionary government up to the conclusion of peace. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Speeches_of_Maximilien_Robespierre/Report_on_the_Principles_of_a_Revolutionary_Government There is another source which stated that this decree passed: https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/national-convention-emergency-government-1793/ I only used this Alpha source once. The actual information comes from the newspaper Le Moniteur Universel, in the days after, but I cannot access the source right now, as I have to subscribe? On 7 May 2024 I added: Palmer is the one which should be mentioned as Hodges used his book. R. R. Palmer (1970) The Twelve who ruled. Again nobody bothered to add this reference. Again the article should look unreliable instead of adding a better source.
• "Yesterday, the president of the revolutionary tribunal [Dumas] openly proposed to the Jacobins that they should drive all impure men from the Convention."[x][better source needed] In: Session of 9 Thermidor at the National Convention (https://rbzpr.tumblr.com/post/146399653659/session-of-9-thermidor-at-the-national-convention) one can read: Know, citizens, that the president of the revolutionary tribunal openly proposed at the Jacobins yesterday to drive all impure men from the Convention, that is to say, all those whom one wants to sacrifice : but the people is there, and the patriots know how to die in order to save liberty. (Yes, yes!, all members cry. - Loud applause.)

Taksen (talk) 09:12, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Suggested improvements on reference 471

You doubt the source, perhaps because of this [3]: Thibault Ehrengardt is a journalist and an expert on Reggae, not very credible. Auguste Sautelet was a bookseller, who published the first edition of the Mémoires pour servir à l'histoire de la révolution française, but it was regarded as apocryphal. [4] I did not use that one. Robespierre is hardly mentioned, only twice. (Louis-François L'Héritier is mentioned to have rewritten (some of) the text. He is not mentioned as the editor of these Memoires, neither on the French or English Wikipedia.) It cannot be Honore de Balzac who was praised for having used and rewritten a "moving account" (1851) which starts with the execution of the King. The mémoires were republished in 1862 (vol. I) which have nothing about Robespierre and 1876 (vol II). Mentioned is a certain publicist by the name d’Olbreuse who edited one third according to Bourdin, who calls it an exiting journal. Henri-Clement could have written most of it as he is seen of a lover literature by Philippe Bourdin, " Seven generations of executioners. Memories of the executioner Sanson (1688-1847) ", an historical Record of the French Revolution, 337 | 2004, 217-219. Sanson’s diary states that he executed 2,548 people between July 14, 1789 and Oct. 1, 1796. Of these, 370 were women, twenty-two were under 18, and nine were over 80. The family’s reign of terror ended in 1847 after Henri-Clément found himself in debt and pawned the guillotine. [5]

• What had happened was not very clear to their officers; either the Convention was closed down or the Paris Commune.[471][unreliable source?] I copied this from the french Wikipedia and had it translated into English: Henri Sanson (1767-1840) was Captain of gunners during the Revolution, he took part with his uncle Pierre-Claude, lieutenant, in the 9 Thermidor, supporting the Paris Commune which tried to oppose the arrest of Robespierre and his friends; Henri was accused of having, with the latter, entered the committee of general security following Jean-Baptiste Coffinhal and freed François Hanriot, the former head of the national guard who had come to free the arrested Jacobin deputies. Henri and Pierre-Claude were however acquitted by the court. In short: Henri participated and was as close as one could get on that day to the events. See p. 192- of his mémoires on what he wrote on the 9th Thermidor. It was written by an officer, who was a few weeks later falsely accused and arrested, p. 194. Sanson was not involved in he rescue of Henriot, p. 195. On page 197: The circumstantial account of the execution of Robespierre, Saint- Just, and Couthon is as furnished to the editor of these Memoirs by his father, who had them from Charles Henri Sanson. I have not a good idea what this means. Was it added by his grandson Clement? C.H. Sanson, his brother and son were involved in the events of 9 Thermidor, arrested and released in February 1795
• Whatever the case, Hanriot landed in a small courtyard on a heap of glass.[471][unreliable source?] Some sources say he landed on a heap manure. I suggest to leave out the heap of glass.
• He had strength enough to crawl into a drain where he was found twelve hours later and taken to the Conciergerie.[471][unreliable source?] See p. 203 of his mémoirs. According to the French Wikipedia: During the capture of the Hôtel de Ville by the troops of the Convention, he hid. He was found, on the morning of 10th Thermidor, in a courtyard of the Hôtel de Ville, horribly wounded in the head. Another source: When they were cercled by Convention troops and Coffinhal found Hanriot in a corridor, he exploded in anger toward him, accusing him of being a coward at this dramatic situation. Hanriot, furious, answered back, and, after a fight Coffinhal threw him to a Common sewer from a window. Hanriot was severely injured after this attack, but not dead. When guards come to bring him to Hôtel-Dieu, they stroke him in the face with a bayonette, and one of his eyes come out and remained there, hanging until he was brought to the guillotine. Another source says it was after twelve hours: [6] In my point of view Sanson knew very well what happened to Henriot. The sentence could be altered to: He was found in a courtyard of the Hôtel de Ville twelve hours later and taken to the Conciergerie. (Of course he was brought to the Conciergerie to be convicted with the others.) the French Wikipedia: François Hanriot had received a bayonet blow that had torn his eye from its socket. He was taken out of a backyard of the Maison Commune, bloodied and disfigured.
• Subsequently, Robespierre was confined to a cell in the Conciergerie.[471][better source needed]. See p. 204. There is no reason to doubt this. They were all taken there in order to be convicted. There is even a plaque in the conciergerie:

Plaque Robespierre (Conciergerie)

• On 10 Thermidor, the Revolutionary Tribunal assembled around noon.[471][unreliable source?] They were convicted in the afternoon without interrogation. Then there hair was cut by one of the Sansons, which may have taken some time. The prisoners were brought to the Place de Revolution around 16.30. The sentence could be changed to: On 10 Thermidor, the Revolutionary Tribunal assembled in the afternoon. See p. 206 and 208. At two o'clock Charles Henri Sanson, his son, his brother, and two assistants entered Robespierre's cell.
• Robespierre was the tenth to ascend the platform.[471][better source needed] The source is the engraving. According to the French Wikipedia: Maximilien de Robespierre was executed in the second-to-last, the last one was Fleuriot-Lescot.
• This could be deleted from the caption: the body of Adrien Nicolas Gobeau, ex-substitute of the public accuser Fouquier and member of the Commune, the first who suffered, is shown lying on the ground;[471][better source needed] Nobody knows who Gobeau was; according the caption the executioner is showing the head of Couthon, good luck.Taksen (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2025 (UTC)